© National Journal Group Inc.
Thursday, Dec. 13, 2007

“I really do believe it was never going to be money that was going to win or lose me an election. It has never been before.” — John McCain

Money woes and a big staff shake-up had some political observers writing John McCain's political obituary months ago, but the 71-year-old Arizona senator has regrouped and refocused his campaign. Some doubts still remain: Could illegal immigration or the Iraq war be his downfall? Are his lagging poll numbers an insurmountable barrier? Can he forsake Iowa and go on to win New Hampshire by appealing to the same independent-minded primary voters who chose him in 2000?

McCain addresses these questions in a Dec. 8 interview with National Journal's Linda Douglass. Edited excerpts follow. Douglass' story on McCain will appear in Friday's issue of National Journal; for previous Insider Interviews, click here.

McCain: I think people know me better in New Hampshire, and so you get almost a familiar kind of environment where people say, "We know you; we appreciate you." Some of them say, "You know, we know you well and have great affection for you, but I disagree with you on this or that." I think what we are seeing probably is kind of like revisiting some of the people.

McCain: No, it really doesn't. People have questions; they are examining the candidates. They take their responsibilities very seriously, and there's a lot of jokes about it. You know -- "I don't know, I've only met him twice." But the fact is that people understand we're now in the home stretch, and they're still examining. A lot of them, still the overwhelming majority, have not made up their minds.

McCain: I would imagine that it's an issue that is very emotional, [that] people are upset about. But I would also argue that when I tell them -- if I can reach them -- that we will secure the borders first, then most people are willing to move forward with a process of addressing the two other major aspects.... A temporary worker program and addressing the issue of [the 12 million people here illegally].

If I can get the message out that we understand there is no faith, confidence or trust in the government and we will secure the borders first, I think most people are satisfied. The question is, how many people do we reach with that message.

McCain: Because I cannot be untrue to my fundamental beliefs about how we should conduct our lives. They are God's children. They are human beings. We should address them with love and compassion, with the full appreciation that the security of our borders is very important.

McCain: Oh, no. I've been using that language long, long before I ever knew Governor Huckabee. Hundreds of hours of debate on the Senate floor on this issue. I have always said that I try to view this from a compassionate and humanitarian standpoint. But the message is, we want the borders secured first.

McCain: Yes, sure. No doubt.

McCain: I don't know Governor Romney well. I've met him on several occasions and seen him at the debates, of course. I try to be respectful to him, and I will be respectful. But sometimes it is aggravating when [there is] an issue, a fundamental issue of leadership such as whether we will torture people or not, that he has not decided. But look, this is a campaign where voters will make a judgment, and that is far more important than any judgment I might make.

McCain: I haven't been to one of his presentations. I am told he does a PowerPoint presentation. The one thing I know about town hall meetings, Linda, is that people -- they want to be informed, but they also like to be entertained. They like to enjoy themselves. And the more humor -- tasteful, appropriate humor -- that you can engage in while you are addressing the serious issues, people come away from it, I think, with a more enjoyable and perhaps even better-informed experience.

McCain: I don't believe they are anywhere as prepared as I am. I've spent my entire life on these issues. I've been involved in every major national security issue for the last 20 years or more. I exercised my judgment on how the war in Iraq should be conducted.... They either were on the sidelines or had different views, and so I believe that my experience and judgment qualify me to lead far more than them. And recent history, as far as addressing the war in Iraq, is a good example.

McCain: Well, that's a little bit hard to describe very briefly, but we intervened in Bosnia when Bosnia certainly was not a threat to United States national security but genocide was taking place. We intervened in Kosovo, not because Kosovo was a threat to United States national security but because we wanted to stop genocide there. There are times where we have learned the lesson of "never again."

A lot of us think, in retrospect, on both sides of the aisle, we should have tried to stop the genocide in Rwanda. It would be easy for me to tell you only when America's national security interests are threatened. I can tell you that it's also, at times, when we can be effective... when American values are affected. Our values are our principles. We are guided by our values.

I can tell you that it's a last resort. I can tell you that it should be where American national security interests are at stake. And it should be where we can rapidly determine a positive outcome sort of along the lines of the Powell Doctrine. But I can tell you this: that American values are very important as well, and one of the things that frustrates all of us Americans now is to sit by and watch what is happening in Darfur. To see a half a million people slaughtered and several million displaced is not something that we in America want to look back on and say, "Never again."

I'm not an interventionist. I think it's a last resort. I understand how precious American blood is better than anybody else, I think, who is running. But I can't tell you that it is a clear-cut decision that only when American national security interests are threatened, because I look at Bosnia and Kosovo and we're glad we did. We were able to go in, get it done and get out.

McCain: I don't think the budgetary crisis affected opinion very much. I think it was the immigration issue that probably did. I'm not running any different. We would be doing the same thing with the same message. We have had to make obviously significant budgetary decisions and cut back to a lean and mean schedule. But I enjoy that, and I really do believe it was never going to be money that was going to win or lose me an election. It has never been before. And I don't think it would be now.

So the fun part is now getting into the home stretch. People are focusing the town hall meetings, the rallies, the volunteers -- we're really getting into the exciting part of the campaign, and I love it.

McCain: I didn't view myself that way. I always thought there was going to be ups and downs. I think we really made gross budgetary misestimates. It's my responsibility. I should have caught it earlier. But I did catch it, and I fixed it. And that means that I won't guarantee people that I won't make mistakes, but when there are mistakes made, I'll fix them.

McCain: Senator Obama has run an excellent campaign. He's extremely articulate, as we know. He has attracted, I think, to some degree, a number of voters who are looking for something new and fresh in American politics because they are tired of business as usual. We all know that on right track, wrong track numbers. So I give Senator Obama credit for running [an] excellent campaign and staying on message. I can see how kind of an independent streak would attract a number of independent voters in the state of New Hampshire.

McCain: I think the reason it's less of an issue [in New Hampshire] -- because they see how I campaign. I would want to keep it open. I look at the Mexican example, where the president is elected for six years. Most of those people are lame ducks the day they are inaugurated, so obviously, it just seems to me... when we have a one-term limit, that has the effect of a lame-duck status, and I would worry about that.

McCain: If voters can understand that it is what I advocated that is succeeding, then it's very helpful to my campaign. If it just fades and is no longer an issue, then I think it it's probably not that helpful. But Linda, I couldn't do anything different than I did then, and I can't do anything different from what I'm doing now -- not when I meet the families of these young people who have sacrificed.

McCain: Well, American troops had withdrawn from Vietnam at the time of the invasion by North Vietnam of South Vietnam. I have very little doubt that if President [Richard] Nixon had not gotten embroiled in Watergate, he would have probably used air power and it may have been to some beneficial effect. I think we forget that the Viet Cong were defeated. There was a conventional military invasion of South Vietnam by North Vietnam, and we cut off all aid and assistance of any kind -- that was an act that Congress has the authority to do.

In my view, it's unfortunate that that outcome took place, because thousands were executed, millions were put in re-education camps, thousands and thousands got on boats to flee a terribly oppressive regime. But American public opinion -- and this is where it is a bit like the Vietnam War, the war in Iraq -- American public opinion became angered and wanted us out of Vietnam, and we're a democracy....

I understand why Americans would like to forget about it. I understand why they would like to put it behind us, because it was a very unhappy chapter in American history. So could we have 'won' in Vietnam? I think so, if we had been able to help the government in Saigon repel the conventional invasion from North Vietnam, but it's also the moral of the story: If you mishandle a conflict and you don't tell the American people the truth about what's going on and you don't succeed, then over time, Americans will want us out and that's democracy. And I respect it.

McCain: In the next month, we have to do well in New Hampshire, period. We have to do well in New Hampshire. And whether that means win or not is up to the expectations of the media. But we have to do well in New Hampshire. We're struggling in Iowa, although we're working hard there. We're doing better in South Carolina.

I still believe that history since 1980 will still hold true, and that is that two of the first three states, when won by one of the candidates, will be the determining factor. I sense the pickup in momentum. I can sense it this morning. But I also know we have a long way to go to break out of the pack and I don't think, frankly, you and I will know what is going to happen until the last 24 hours, when you consider how many independent voters are going to break and the number of candidates that have some viability. So I think we may be up late on January the 8th, and it's going to be fun every step of the way.

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